Buying at Riviera and Resale Restrictions

[Sebastian]

Hello all

My wife and I have have been looking into DVC for years and feel it's time to take the plunge. I was going to do resale (the savings really seem worth it) but FOMO has got to me and I really want to be able to stay at the Riviera and future resorts. We love the Riviera and decided it's a good home resort for our family. My big concern are the resale restrictions should we decide to sell. I'm wondering if we locked in a guaranteed week would this help the resale-ability if it was a week where availability might be challenging like Christmas.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated (and any other recommendations), thank you in advance

[YorkshireT]

The numbers of Riviera resale are still quite low, which will prop up the price to some extent and of course it is new.

My personal view is DVD decided to impose these restrictions to try and reduce the resale market and essentially make themselves more profit. However, the people who suffer are not DVD, but instead the people buying Riviera who take an unnecessary hit on their asset when they come to sell.

No one buys DVC intending to sell, but everyone should buy expecting to sell.

The other issue with it is eventually, in 10, 20 years you will have a lot of resale buyers who can only book there. What will that do to availability?

If you look on the other board right of first refusal thread, there’s one Riviera been posted recently:


pangyal---$116-$18970-155-RIV-Dec-0/19, 137/20, 155/21, 155/22-Seller pays '20 MF- sent 12/10, passed 1/5

Yes, a new DVC property and it’s resale price is on par with Saratoga - the seller is having to pay the dues for 2020 (so knock off $8.38 a point but there’s only 137 points left out of 155 so say $7.50 a point). So it’s effectively been sold for $108 ish a point.

However that was January and prices have risen a bit so I suspect you’d get in the 120s now.

Would I personally buy knowing such a hit will await me if or when I come to sell? And this has been done to make DVD more cash? The answer is no.

If it didn’t have the restrictions it would be going in the $170s or $180s as Grand Floridian is.

I’m not sure if a guaranteed week would do much to help you with the fundamental problem.

As to future resorts, there are not any planned (apart from a new California tower). Reflections seems dead currently as they even now took away the construction buildings. Will we get, say, more than 1 new WDW resort in the next 10 years? And even that may be just another Bay Lake Tower which you could stay in now with resale points.

However if you are prepared to lose money when selling, unlike many DVC owners who have actually made money on reselling, and really like Riviera and have to own there, that is a decision only you can make. I personally only enter into such transactions if they make a lot of financial sense, and the ability to resell at a very good price definitely factored into my original purchase decision. However if you really want to stay at Riviera beyond all other considerations you’ve now got no choice but to buy direct although remember they still sell the other resorts and you’d hang onto more value by buying one of those potentially direct. Luckily most of us on here who have resale bought before those restrictions came in, but I’d be happy with the original 16 resorts anyway. The fact that resale took no discernible hit from those restrictions being introduced means the majority of new resale buyers seem to think the same way.

A lot of people seem to like Riviera when they stay there. I can’t bring myself to book it to see if I’d like it more than I did when I visited- the points per night are very, very high- another factor to think about when selecting a resort. Copper Creek is good in that respect as it’s a newish resort but they kept the points per night on a par with Boulder Ridge.

A big factor is dues cost- Riviera is also currently very high, although they may have ‘done a Copper Creek’ and over estimated them but we are now in year 2 of the resort, so you can’t assume that and they seem to have Skyliner costs loaded onto them. Remember you will pay much, much more in dues over life of contract than buy in cost. Even if you bought Riviera resale and worked out costs on an average per year of contract including buy in and dues (Riviera resale should be top on price buy in alone given relatively cheap resale value and years on contract), it’s STILL about six down the list of cheapest resorts per year, so this shows you how expensive those dues are. Factor in a direct price purchase and you are somewhere amongst the most expensive resorts to own over life of contract and that’s before factoring in how many points you need for the room which is way higher than many resorts.

Good luck with the decision, I love the DVC even if not being able to use it for 18 months has been a bit of a challenge, but then again in some ways it’s been good as it’s been easy to cancel and rent the points. Riviera points will rent really well I suspect.

I sound like a Debbie downer on Riviera and get many people love it, I’m not, I’m just showing how my mind works when assessing it which is unfortunately on the negative side. Buy what’s right for you, but the fact you’ve posted indicates you have concerns maybe in the back of your mind. Do some more research if that is the case.

[PoohBears#1fan]

I wouldn't buy at Riviera because of the resale restrictions, whilst I didn't originally buy into DVC with the intention of selling, the resale price of points there is out there to see, so buying something that's instantly going to devalue just makes no sense to me.

I'm really not taken with the resort at all, so that could also influence my decision and I have no idea if a secured week would help with value, you would assume so if it's a difficult to get time of year. I don't know how guaranteed weeks work, does that tie you in to that week then take away the flexibility of booking other times of the year or is it just there if you want it?

I swore for years that I'd never buy direct again with the current prices, but added on 3 contracts direct at CCV in 2018 as the longer 50 year contract (& add on incentives) actually made it the most viable purchase for us, so it's always worth doing the maths even if the face value looks high on buying direct.

Good luck whatever you decide, we're all different and want different things out of our ownership, mine has served my very well for 19 years now, but it's the flexibility that's been invaluable as needs change over time, that's the one thing I wouldn't want to sacrifice.

[Custancia]

We’ve added added on direct at Riviera to get a blue card. (The blue card was more of an emotional than financial decision - but I think a lot of decisions/spending Disney are not based on financial “best value”.)
Given this is our “keeper” blue card resort, this is the one we don’t intend to sell. And the 50 year contract made the year over year costs comparable to resale other resorts (dues being a different long term cost, of course)
There is very little data on Riveira resale so far. I don’t know whether a guaranteed week would help, if you want to sell in future. I suspect smaller contracts are more likely to help in selling.
Overall, my view is whilst I understand its sensible to think about an exit strategy, if you are thinking of buying with a view to selling in the future, then Riviera probably isn’t the best choice.

[KarenG]

I wouldn’t have been so eloquent but YT’s post is exactly my view.

I question whether the fixed week would help - I could see the opposite happening - but again no real data available.

Good luck with your decision

[tigger48]

OP I would also largely concur with YT’s excellent post. Your choice of Direct or Resale buy in, and home resort is so variable, and personal, but if you have doubts take your time and research some more.
Resale restrictions aside, sorry but RVA doesn’t appeal to us. The location doesn’t feel premium enough, and from the outside it’s aesthetics don’t appeal either, given its similarity to a mid range chain hotel. It doesn’t scream Disney, or look special enough. The jury is still out for us on the sky liner. The points chart is very high too, so your buck won’t go as far as it does in the original 16 resorts. If you really want to stay at RVA you could always rent your resale points and put the proceeds towards a cash stay at RVA, thereby avoiding RVA’s higher annual dues too!
It’s too soon to say how the resale restriction will affect availability, but I could foresee a time in the future when resale RVA buyers are potentially locked out or frantically walking reservations to ensure their stays. In that scenario possibly a fixed week would be worth considering, given that points inflation is also insured against.
How long do you envisage owning for? I’m sure that i read somewhere that the average DVC member owns for only c10 years. Whilst no-one buying DVC does so planning to sell, life, medical conditions, worldwide pandemics etc may mean a sale becomes necessary, and forewarned is forearmed as to what its realistic to expect.
FWIW we own both direct and resale and our home resort is SSR, for its location to DS, end date, dues, variety of unit sizes and friendly points charts YMMV. We feel this gives us maximum flexibility, and still gives us the ability to trade out at 7 months subject to availability.
Good luck with your researching.

[YorkshireT]

Originally Posted by tigger48

OP I would also largely concur with YT’s excellent post. Your choice of Direct or Resale buy in, and home resort is so variable, and personal, but if you have doubts take your time and research some more.
Resale restrictions aside, sorry but RVA doesn’t appeal to us. The location doesn’t feel premium enough, and from the outside it’s aesthetics don’t appeal either, given its similarity to a mid range chain hotel. It doesn’t scream Disney, or look special enough. The jury is still out for us on the sky liner. The points chart is very high too, so your buck won’t go as far as it does in the original 16 resorts. If you really want to stay at RVA you could always rent your resale points and put the proceeds towards a cash stay at RVA, thereby avoiding RVA’s higher annual dues too!
It’s too soon to say how the resale restriction will affect availability, but I could foresee a time in the future when resale RVA buyers are potentially locked out or frantically walking reservations to ensure their stays. In that scenario possibly a fixed week would be worth considering, given that points inflation is also insured against.
How long do you envisage owning for? I’m sure that i read somewhere that the average DVC member owns for only c10 years. Whilst no-one buying DVC does so planning to sell, life, medical conditions, worldwide pandemics etc may mean a sale becomes necessary, and forewarned is forearmed as to what its realistic to expect.
FWIW we own both direct and resale and our home resort is SSR, for its location to DS, end date, dues, variety of unit sizes and friendly points charts YMMV. We feel this gives us maximum flexibility, and still gives us the ability to trade out at 7 months subject to availability.
Good luck with your researching.

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I really would like to give Riviera a go. I see so many people praising it when stopping there, and the rooms are best on property, that I may change my opinion on a stay (I visited December 2019 and had the same view as you on my flying visit). I’m a great believer in that you can’t really tell exactly how much you’d like a place until you stay there- we have been surprised both ways.
My wife said book Riviera as it has the extra under TV bed- “it’s the same points” when we were booking Copper Creek for summer. I said what, are you sure? This is what happens when an amateur starts messing with the DVC booking system Of course, it wasn’t she had selected 4 nights and not 5, so there’s the problem, I can get an extra night at another resort for the same points.
Maybe one day I’m get to try it and then can give an informed opinion on what it’s really like, and whether it will really exceed my expectations.

[Sebastian]

Thank you all so much for the posts, it's amazing getting everyones views. Thank you for taking the time.

Our DVC Guide came back to us yesterday with prices for our guaranteed weeks and just told us the points allocation. There's no premium per point (which I was expecting) and the auto reservation can be cancelled at any time and the points used as normal. Now I'm wondering what's the catch? Why wouldn't everyone do this if the points are the same, there's no extra cost and as tigger48 mentioned it protects against point inflation for a particular time that might be popular (like Christmas). It seems worth it to me even if we weren't guaranteed to stay those weeks in the future.

Am I missing something? There isn't much information about them online and not many of the usual bloggers and vloggers mention them. There has to be a tradeoff somewhere?

[tigger48]

OP it may perhaps be me, but afaik there IS a points premium when purchasing a fixed week, as this reflects the convenience of always having the reservation made for you at c 11 months out.
OP Check the points chart for the number of points currently required for your fixed week. When calculating the points required for a fixed week contract, typically the resort’s opening year points chart is inflated by c10% to give the fixed week cost eg (not the real figures but for illustration) initial year points for x studio type & view are 100, a fixed week for x studio at the same time will be 110 points on the contract. However, if in future years the points required for that stay exceed the (110) points on your fixed weeks contract, then you are ahead and have nothing further to pay. Alternatively, if the points required were to drop to say 105, there is no refund of points.
You will pay annual dues on the number of points on your fixed week contract i.e. 110 which is (potentially) higher than the number of points you would need to book the corresponding none fixed week - and this is the premium.
If you chose to cancel your fixed week reservation ahead of time, then you will be able to use all 110 points on the contract.
There are plenty of very detailed resources available online, try the “other board” or a quick google search too for more info HTH.

[Sebastian]

Thank you tigger48 that makes complete sense now and you're absolutely right. We looked at fixing weeks 41 and 42 at Riviera and they quoted 130 a week and with the 2021 points charts it's 123 a week. I knew there had to be a cost somewhere, thank you so much.