Would you want to pay more National Insurance?

[BevS97]

Yes I would.
If we lose the NHS and end up with some sort of insurance/ paid system then it will cost us more.
That’s not to say the NHS is perfect or that things can’t be improved but I will take an imperfect NHS which is free to everyone at point of use over any system that requires proof of payment before treatment.

[JamesL]

From the NHS:

"NHS administrative costs are already far lower than other comparable major countries. Latest OECD data show that on a like for like basis we spend only 2p in the pound on administration, compared to 5p in Germany and 6p in France (55).

Like the rest of the public sector, the health service needs to concentrate its resources on front line service delivery as much as possible. At the same time, administration and back office functions play a vital role in keeping the NHS going, from payroll and HR facilities through to sourcing medical supplies and keeping GP practices and hospitals well stocked."

Which of the administration staff do people want to get rid of? And do they then want nurses and doctors doing admin tasks?

[tspill]

Originally Posted by cornishfrogboy

I have worked in a Hospital for 7 years now. The front line staff (those who are actually caring for patients, Drs, Nurses, Care assistants, Domestics, Porters, ward receptionists) in the vast majority work extremely hard and for long shifts (12.5 hours), nights and weekends. I greatly admire them.

The issues in efficiency lie else where and I liken the NHS to a broken set of Victorian, sash windows (bear with me).

The windows are old, have 25 layers of accumulated paint on them and will not work properly. They are clearly rotten in places. Do you...
1. Put some more paint on in order to cover up the cracks and hope the issue is covered up until you are no longer there.
2. Strip them back to bare wood, removing all of the accumulated layers that are clogging them up, fully examine the problem and then fix it, chopping out the rot as necessary and then ensuring proper operation before once again putting on a fresh, clean, layer of gloss to protect against the future.

The NHS is 70 years old and whilst a groundbreaking revelation at its instigation has an accumulated administrative burden that has been allowed to build up without reform since its inception.
If you open a department and it has an administrator, it is for sure that the administrator will want to be a manager with 2 administrators working underneath. That Manager will then see a need for a Secretary, a PA and various other underlings in the years that follow as they climb the slippery pole, expanding their team and demanding ever more money to manage what they have created.

The NHS is a sacred cow in this country that no Political Party dare say anything about other than praise it.. and offer ever more money as it strikes a chord with pretty much every voter, playing on their fears of becoming ill and not being treated. Any Party that says they are not going to increase the budget is doomed.

There needs to be a total review of what the NHS does and from top to bottom, how it does it, whether it should be doing it at all and in addition, how it can be achieved with maximum efficiency against minimal cost. The ‘layers of paint’ need to be stripped away and a thorough investigation carried out before a minimal, modern and effective top coat is then reapplied after all remedial work has been carried out and reform put in place that will take us into the future.

In truth, we do not know how much the NHS should cost to give maximum bang for buck and until such a review is carried out, we never will. We may already be paying too much whilst observing institutional ineffiency. We may want to pay more, once reform is in place.

There.. I have dared criticise the sacred cow!

See more...

Excellent and fair post.

[salmim]

Originally Posted by cornishfrogboy

I have worked in a Hospital for 7 years now. The front line staff (those who are actually caring for patients, Drs, Nurses, Care assistants, Domestics, Porters, ward receptionists) in the vast majority work extremely hard and for long shifts (12.5 hours), nights and weekends. I greatly admire them.

The issues in efficiency lie else where and I liken the NHS to a broken set of Victorian, sash windows (bear with me).

The windows are old, have 25 layers of accumulated paint on them and will not work properly. They are clearly rotten in places. Do you...
1. Put some more paint on in order to cover up the cracks and hope the issue is covered up until you are no longer there.
2. Strip them back to bare wood, removing all of the accumulated layers that are clogging them up, fully examine the problem and then fix it, chopping out the rot as necessary and then ensuring proper operation before once again putting on a fresh, clean, layer of gloss to protect against the future.

The NHS is 70 years old and whilst a groundbreaking revelation at its instigation has an accumulated administrative burden that has been allowed to build up without reform since its inception.
If you open a department and it has an administrator, it is for sure that the administrator will want to be a manager with 2 administrators working underneath. That Manager will then see a need for a Secretary, a PA and various other underlings in the years that follow as they climb the slippery pole, expanding their team and demanding ever more money to manage what they have created.

The NHS is a sacred cow in this country that no Political Party dare say anything about other than praise it.. and offer ever more money as it strikes a chord with pretty much every voter, playing on their fears of becoming ill and not being treated. Any Party that says they are not going to increase the budget is doomed.

There needs to be a total review of what the NHS does and from top to bottom, how it does it, whether it should be doing it at all and in addition, how it can be achieved with maximum efficiency against minimal cost. The ‘layers of paint’ need to be stripped away and a thorough investigation carried out before a minimal, modern and effective top coat is then reapplied after all remedial work has been carried out and reform put in place that will take us into the future.

In truth, we do not know how much the NHS should cost to give maximum bang for buck and until such a review is carried out, we never will. We may already be paying too much whilst observing institutional ineffiency. We may want to pay more, once reform is in place.

There.. I have dared criticise the sacred cow!

See more...

That's an excellent post and a very good analogy (I bore with you&#128522

I think when the great day dawn's when we are all free of this horrible virus the world is going to be a very different place. At least I hope so.

I think I it will take a while as it has cost governments a huge amount to "wrap their arms around us all". However I think (well hope) that we all see the true benefits of a healthy life and what that actually will cost us. I would pay more in extra taxation if it goes to fund the NHS and other front line services. Pay would be included for these heroes and that is what they are. Can you imagine being on the front line when there is currently no cure? I do not mind saying that I would be petrified but they go on regardless. They need a reward not only better equipment but with a bonus and then good pay awards.
However...will we remember this next election..if you were to see 5% more tax ? Much more (and I would very much encourage this) tax on tobacco, alcohol, sugar drinks, fatty foods and unhealthy takeaways?

I hope we see more consensus in Politics, it's been an eye opener.
Stay safe.

[Guest]

Originally Posted by TractorBoy

.

Higher taxes on alcohol and cigarettes is a must. The higher the better!

See more...

You can't just tax these two "sin taxes" you'd have to go after them all.

Personally I'd be in favour of putting up APD to £300 a person as after all a holiday that involves a flight is a pure luxury

[Moorlandman]

The two political parties that proposed higher taxes for the NHS (Lib Dems & Labour) both failed to get anywhere at the last election. People preferred to vote for Jacob Rees-Mogg and further tax cuts for the wealthy :-)

[mumx3]

Originally Posted by cornishfrogboy

I have worked in a Hospital for 7 years now. The front line staff (those who are actually caring for patients, Drs, Nurses, Care assistants, Domestics, Porters, ward receptionists) in the vast majority work extremely hard and for long shifts (12.5 hours), nights and weekends. I greatly admire them.

The issues in efficiency lie else where and I liken the NHS to a broken set of Victorian, sash windows (bear with me).

The windows are old, have 25 layers of accumulated paint on them and will not work properly. They are clearly rotten in places. Do you...
1. Put some more paint on in order to cover up the cracks and hope the issue is covered up until you are no longer there.
2. Strip them back to bare wood, removing all of the accumulated layers that are clogging them up, fully examine the problem and then fix it, chopping out the rot as necessary and then ensuring proper operation before once again putting on a fresh, clean, layer of gloss to protect against the future.

The NHS is 70 years old and whilst a groundbreaking revelation at its instigation has an accumulated administrative burden that has been allowed to build up without reform since its inception.
If you open a department and it has an administrator, it is for sure that the administrator will want to be a manager with 2 administrators working underneath. That Manager will then see a need for a Secretary, a PA and various other underlings in the years that follow as they climb the slippery pole, expanding their team and demanding ever more money to manage what they have created.

The NHS is a sacred cow in this country that no Political Party dare say anything about other than praise it.. and offer ever more money as it strikes a chord with pretty much every voter, playing on their fears of becoming ill and not being treated. Any Party that says they are not going to increase the budget is doomed.

There needs to be a total review of what the NHS does and from top to bottom, how it does it, whether it should be doing it at all and in addition, how it can be achieved with maximum efficiency against minimal cost. The ‘layers of paint’ need to be stripped away and a thorough investigation carried out before a minimal, modern and effective top coat is then reapplied after all remedial work has been carried out and reform put in place that will take us into the future.

In truth, we do not know how much the NHS should cost to give maximum bang for buck and until such a review is carried out, we never will. We may already be paying too much whilst observing institutional ineffiency. We may want to pay more, once reform is in place.

There.. I have dared criticise the sacred cow!

See more...

Great post, i remember Anne Widdicome on QT, a long while ago saying the same thing, its pointless keep throwing money at the NHS, until exactly what you have said, bring it back to its bare bones and get rid of all the unneeded chiefs who are not needed but are taking the lions share of the money.

Its sounds so logical but Im guessing the powers that be have too much invested in the NHS !

[HolyCow]

In answer to the original question, I would be prepared to pay more tax of any description to fund better services.

In relation to the NHS, having had very little interaction with it over the past 60 odd years, I have recently (pre-Covid) been involved in a lot of appointments and procedures with other family members. By and large, care is excellent. My own GP is very good at proactive, preventive medicine. Where they all fall down is in admin, which as an administrator myself, surprises me. GP and hospital requesting the same tests and not communicating with each other or the patient, hospital transport turning up 4 times in 10 days for appointments that were cancelled by the hospital (not Covid related cancellations), system errors that prevent repeat prescriptions being ordered despite visits and phone calls, and so on. Compared to the actual medical practice, you'd think these were the easy things to get right.

[Guest]

Originally Posted by Moorlandman

The two political parties that proposed higher taxes for the NHS (Lib Dems & Labour) both failed to get anywhere at the last election. People preferred to vote for Jacob Rees-Mogg and further tax cuts for the wealthy :-)

See more...

I'm pretty sure very few people actually voted for JRM. Boris, maybe. Brexit, certainly. But I doubt JRM was the main consideration for anyone voting for the Tories. I imagine JRM probably has a net negative effect on Tory votes to be honest...

[Leggibone]

I would, but - the additional would have to go to the NHS in addition to other funding already (like no taking away existing funding) and the system was made more fair!