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Old 6 May 14, 02:06 PM  
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#21
Diamonddog2801
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They may not say it... even they aren't that stupid again (I think)... but we all know this is exactly what is happening. It is no great coincidence that whenever either BA or Virgin announce a sale on Las Vegas fares, the other follows suit within 24 hours. Without fail. And they always discount by almost exactly the same % as the other... without fail.

It may be unwritten/unstated but they tie their prices completely, because they are the only companies that offer the service. As I said, it is the lack of competition that drives the prices, not the actual operating costs. That is, in all but name, a cartel.
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Old 6 May 14, 02:51 PM  
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Originally Posted by drspear View Post
that isn't correct I am afraid indirect flights to vegas in feb I would be offended to pay more than 450. That is without any sale. I more often do it for nearer 350.

For people who particularly like direct then you pay more, its a choice you make, but you can save money going indirect.
Well you might be offended but i'm not... if you read my post my flights for less than £550 are direct.. £450 each (so saving £400) is not enough to tempt me to fly indirect whether or not the kids are with me..

There's plenty of ways i can save £400 on my holiday without dragging out the travelling day.
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Old 6 May 14, 02:59 PM  
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog2801 View Post
I think it's important to make a distinction re West Coast direct/indirect flights here... Las Vegas is entirely different to LA or San Francisco. Because there are only (in effect) two direct carriers to Las Vegas, there is a premium on those flights. It is ridiculous that the airport which is actually cloesest (Las Vegas) costs more to fly direct to, for a start... but then when you realise those flights are often £200-£300 more than their LA/SF counterparts, you know you're getting ripped. Big time.

Daytonababe is right - you can sometimes pick up cheaper Virgin/BA direct flights to Las Vegas than the £650+ that seems to now be the going rate... but it is very fleeting and only ever in sales.

I don't like flying indirect but if an extra 7 hours in total saves me £200-£300, I'm certainly going to consider the option.
I agree with you to a point DDog, but the point I was trying to make is that I found the difference for indirect / direct West Coast flights (including Vegas though I accept and agree that those flights are almost always more expensive!) to be less marked than East Coast. I mean, with some serious effort, tracking and checking flight prices several times a day.

Originally Posted by Diamonddog2801 View Post
They may not say it... even they aren't that stupid again (I think)... but we all know this is exactly what is happening. It is no great coincidence that whenever either BA or Virgin announce a sale on Las Vegas fares, the other follows suit within 24 hours. Without fail. And they always discount by almost exactly the same % as the other... without fail.

It may be unwritten/unstated but they tie their prices completely, because they are the only companies that offer the service. As I said, it is the lack of competition that drives the prices, not the actual operating costs. That is, in all but name, a cartel.
Again, on the surface I agree with you BUT there could be another factor, (let's call it Factor X) that drives prices. You could call Factor X jet fuel but then we're into a whole new interesting debate on hedging policies

Sometimes an underlying reason exists - perhaps the Vegas route makes healthy margins but the LAX one loses money due to competition. They need a balance between the two to be able to run the business.

I am not saying I am calling it right, simply that this is another view.
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Old 6 May 14, 04:34 PM  
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Aha... I understand that (and i'm not quite sure what McCarran charges airlines etc).

But... I am trying to emphasise the huge difference in cost of direct/indirect flights to Las Vegas (not the west coast where, inexplicably, it is very often cheaper to fly direct than indirect). Just Las Vegas - where an indirect flight is £450, the direct would be £650-£700 (generally). That is a huge difference. Much greater that LA or SF.

Why is that? If it was down to a common denominator, which makes flights to Las Vegas more expensive, then it would make indirect flights more expensive too. Simply put it very rarely does. The only difference between an indirect and direct flight to Las Vegas is that there are only two direct carriers - whereas there is just as much competition for indirect flights as there is to LA/SF. It follows that the only reason for direct flights costing proportionately so much more is because BA & Virgin artificially jack the price up - because they have no competition.
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Old 6 May 14, 04:49 PM  
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Originally Posted by daytonababe View Post
Well you might be offended but i'm not... if you read my post my flights for less than £550 are direct.. £450 each (so saving £400) is not enough to tempt me to fly indirect whether or not the kids are with me..

There's plenty of ways i can save £400 on my holiday without dragging out the travelling day.
I 'm with you DB I just want to get there as quickly as possible for as little as possible . Have flown in direct but not too keen as incurred missed connections in the past and it makes a long days travelling.
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Old 6 May 14, 04:51 PM  
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog2801 View Post
Aha... I understand that (and i'm not quite sure what McCarran charges airlines etc).

But... I am trying to emphasise the huge difference in cost of direct/indirect flights to Las Vegas (not the west coast where, inexplicably, it is very often cheaper to fly direct than indirect). Just Las Vegas - where an indirect flight is £450, the direct would be £650-£700 (generally). That is a huge difference. Much greater that LA or SF.

Why is that? If it was down to a common denominator, which makes flights to Las Vegas more expensive, then it would make indirect flights more expensive too. Simply put it very rarely does. The only difference between an indirect and direct flight to Las Vegas is that there are only two direct carriers - whereas there is just as much competition for indirect flights as there is to LA/SF. It follows that the only reason for direct flights costing proportionately so much more is because BA & Virgin artificially jack the price up - because they have no competition.
I definitely think prices to Vegas would come down if another carrier started a direct route to their . I wonder how much Thomas Cook will charge from Stansted next summer?


Be nice if one of the American carriers took up the route wouldn't it?
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Old 6 May 14, 04:53 PM  
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In which case, I agree

(Brings me back to the point that some routes they make healthy margins and on others, not, though).

The other thing that always makes me cry a little inside is when I'm on a flight which is basically empty - four times now with VA in Jan and Feb when the flights were spectacularly less than a third full. Wonderful for me as a passenger. But imagine what they've lost on that flight! And how much they're going to have to ramp up prices on other flights to recoup that... Like to Vegas

But I believe we are in absolute agreement
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Old 6 May 14, 04:56 PM  
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Originally Posted by florida girl View Post
I 'm with you DB I just want to get there as quickly as possible for as little as possible . Have flown in direct but not too keen as incurred missed connections in the past and it makes a long days travelling.
I know what you mean. I think we all have a value vs effort expended model.

Originally Posted by daytonababe View Post
I definitely think prices to Vegas would come down if another carrier started a direct route to their . I wonder how much Thomas Cook will charge from Stansted next summer?


Be nice if one of the American carriers took up the route wouldn't it?
Can't see it happening, DB not with the hub and spoke model they all seem to have.
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Old 6 May 14, 05:11 PM  
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Old 6 May 14, 05:56 PM  
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you have been able to get massive price reductions flying from outside the UK to the US for some time now - lots of BA business px used to head to the US from Lisbon to take advantage of the reduced prices. As other have said, it is all about balancing convenience and cost - when I am flying on business I have been known to spend £2k on an economy ticket to the US, when flying leisure I have never spent over £400 on a ticket.

As to the costs of flying direct to Vegas, this is purely supply and demand. Airline revenue management systems are complicated beasts and there are hundreds of economists and mathematicians who work on amending the algorithm's constantly (which is why you see prices change between browsing sessions - nothing to do with clearing cookies I'm afraid). The job of the system is to maximise the yield for every single plane that takes to the sky rather than to 'overcharge' customers as has been mentioned. They need to generate revenue off strong routes to cover the losses they make on B&S routes in the low season.

APD doesn't help of course, but you will all by flying from up here in Scotland in a few years if Independence appears and APD is scrapped by a Scottish Government - sure a few die-hard 'direct only' folks would make the sacrifice to save £300 per flight
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