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Old 20 Dec 15, 12:44 PM  
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fl-veteran
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Originally Posted by JohnD View Post
Can you give a link that actually supports your racial profiling theory with actual data rather than than the theory of one person?

In any case you're still avoiding the questions from TM and Gepetto - what would YOU do? (Answering with negatives and evasions doesn't count.)
I guess the keyboard is going to get some additional wear after all.

Avoiding the questions? OK, I won't 'avoid' them, although I would say I answered them with logic - if you feel that is avoiding them... I see you think I have a "theory". I don't, I have an opinion based upon reading the facts and theories of others.

So, firstly, can I give you a link that excludes the most important piece of work done on the subject (Glass) because you don't like that it is based upon statistical theory and was done by one, extremely well respected, mathematician? Yes, I can - start reading at page six. This is a report by The Constitution Project, a well respected non-political US organisation.

Secondly, by your inference, if I can't come up with a comprehensive security plan for Disney then my argument is invalid. But I'm not allowed to argue that (e.g. say that it is a ridiculous questions) or use negatives (point out what doesn't work). That would seem a very self-serving way of you asking the question, but given that you seem quite insistent, I'll answer that one as well.

I would gather some of the finest security minds on the planet and ask them what they thought the plan should be. I would include people such as:

Bruce Schneier, security technologist and author of “Beyond Fear: Thinking Sensibly About Security in an Uncertain World.”, a book which points out why profiling makes us less safe.

Rafi Sela, an international transportation security consultant who points out that it is more effective to look for guns and explosives than screen people.

Michael German, former F.B.I. agent, policy counsel for the Washington legislative office of the American Civil Liberties Union and the author of “Thinking Like a Terrorist.”, who says "Racial profiling is a shortcut based on bias rather than evidence.", "There simply is no reliable 'terrorist profile.'" and points out that both shoe bomber Richard Reid and London subway bomber Germaine Lindsay, were both British citizens of Jamaican descent and that terrorists do not come in a particular colour or from a particular place.

Sheldon H. Jacobson, professor of computer science at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. He has researched and designed effective aviation security systems and operations since 1996. He feels that "More screening can actually result in less security by directing security attention and resources (which by definition, are finite) onto people who are not a threat, which in turn moves such attention and resources away from people who are a threat."

Now, in good humour, can you answer a question for me? Have you stopped beating your wife yet? You're not allowed to answer in the negative or use evasion.

edit: I take that last bit back on the basis that it could be misunderstood and cause offence. "Have you stopped beating your wife yet" used to be used as an example of a loaded question when I was younger, but asking around younger people than me just now (of which there are quite a few) just gave me blank, horrified looks!

Edited at 01:17 PM.
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Old 20 Dec 15, 08:33 PM  
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Originally Posted by fl-veteran View Post
I guess the keyboard is going to get some additional wear after all.

Avoiding the questions? OK, I won't 'avoid' them, although I would say I answered them with logic - if you feel that is avoiding them... I see you think I have a "theory". I don't, I have an opinion based upon reading the facts and theories of others.

So, firstly, can I give you a link that excludes the most important piece of work done on the subject (Glass) because you don't like that it is based upon statistical theory and was done by one, extremely well respected, mathematician? Yes, I can - start reading at page six. This is a report by The Constitution Project, a well respected non-political US organisation.

Secondly, by your inference, if I can't come up with a comprehensive security plan for Disney then my argument is invalid. But I'm not allowed to argue that (e.g. say that it is a ridiculous questions) or use negatives (point out what doesn't work). That would seem a very self-serving way of you asking the question, but given that you seem quite insistent, I'll answer that one as well.

I would gather some of the finest security minds on the planet and ask them what they thought the plan should be. I would include people such as:

Bruce Schneier, security technologist and author of “Beyond Fear: Thinking Sensibly About Security in an Uncertain World.”, a book which points out why profiling makes us less safe.

Rafi Sela, an international transportation security consultant who points out that it is more effective to look for guns and explosives than screen people.

Michael German, former F.B.I. agent, policy counsel for the Washington legislative office of the American Civil Liberties Union and the author of “Thinking Like a Terrorist.”, who says "Racial profiling is a shortcut based on bias rather than evidence.", "There simply is no reliable 'terrorist profile.'" and points out that both shoe bomber Richard Reid and London subway bomber Germaine Lindsay, were both British citizens of Jamaican descent and that terrorists do not come in a particular colour or from a particular place.

Sheldon H. Jacobson, professor of computer science at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. He has researched and designed effective aviation security systems and operations since 1996. He feels that "More screening can actually result in less security by directing security attention and resources (which by definition, are finite) onto people who are not a threat, which in turn moves such attention and resources away from people who are a threat."

Now, in good humour, can you answer a question for me? Have you stopped beating your wife yet? You're not allowed to answer in the negative or use evasion.

edit: I take that last bit back on the basis that it could be misunderstood and cause offence. "Have you stopped beating your wife yet" used to be used as an example of a loaded question when I was younger, but asking around younger people than me just now (of which there are quite a few) just gave me blank, horrified looks!
Interesting group you've chosen there, predominantly from the ACLU or Guardian, which would tend to support your theories or 'opinions' on profiling.

As to your 'question' which I view as another version of Godwins law, I'd reply 'After I saw I saw you beating your wife, I considered it an uncivilised action I did not want to perpetuate'.

Seriously though, if you want or need to bring a thread down to that level, I'm out of here.
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Old 20 Dec 15, 09:03 PM  
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Originally Posted by JohnD View Post
Interesting group you've chosen there, predominantly from the ACLU or Guardian, which would tend to support your theories or 'opinions' on profiling.
You asked for a link supporting my opinion. I'm hardly going to go looking in right wing groups for that... However, while one of the people I listed was from the ACLU the others weren't and the evidence I provided was by a completely politically neutral group.

Originally Posted by JohnD View Post
Seriously though, if you want or need to bring a thread down to that level, I'm out of here.
So, I answered your loaded questions, you're still not happy so off you go?

And bring the argument to what level? Trying to point out that the evidence shows you are wrong? Noting that you ask ridiculously loaded or skewed questions?

Still, gives you a nice excuse to walk away from open debate pretending moral victory.
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Old 20 Dec 15, 09:56 PM  
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