BA Pilots Strike

[Procrastinator]

Originally Posted by cheekytink

I'm tracking the discussions as we are due to fly on the 19th to TPA. However, now the appeal has been lost by BA, it does seem that the Pilots have BA by the preverbial "short & curlies" as at some point BA are going to have to up their offer - it seems to me (and I'm a simple soul) that they don't have a lot of choice, and the negotiations this week will be more about damage limitation. Let's hope an amicable solution can be found and we can all enjoy our much-needed summer holidays!

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Didn't BA respond to a previous strike by removing all the travel perks from those employees? That was quite a hit for the employees. BA would likely see something like 10 days of strikes and the £400m of cost as good value if it helped to reduce any increase. Plus, the PR of the strikes will help BA - they will spin it as "Greedy Pilots" ruin holidays.

BA could also reduce their current 11.5% offer.

If you are a pilot who has lost their your free travel, and losing / waiting for a potential 11.5% increase and do they not lose pay whilen on strike? Is there not a point enough of them will fold.

Hopefully it doesn't come to a prolonged battle of who is willing to suffer the most, but i don't think the pilots hold all the cards. Which means they really might end up having a few rounds of strikes so both sides can show they are serious.

Hope I'm wrong, but i think the prospect of a 21.5% increase in staff costs for BA is something they will really dig in to avoid.

[OLS]

Originally Posted by Procrastinator

The quote that what the pilots are after will cost less than 1 day of strike is miss leading. This is almost certainly a 1 year conparison. E.g. the pilots want less than £40m extra per year. The £40m per day it would cost for the strike.

But, 4,500 pilots, that is about £10k each. On top of the £100k ish salary, that is another 10%.

So the pilots are essentially saying an 11.5% payrise over 3 years is not good enough. They want 21.5%. Which will be done through a profit share.

What will every other employee in a union in BA do next? They will ask for the same.

The end result will be wage inflation of 21.5% across BA in only 3 years. That is why BA are fighting so hard. If that happens it will have a material impact on ticket prices for the consumer.

I don't know all the details of what they do receive in remuneration so the logic above could be flawed, but fundamentally i don't think an employee doing the same job that they did last year should expect anything other than an inflation linked increase. The way to higher pay should be greater responsibility and taking on a new role. E.g. progress from first officer to captain. Not just - we can cause you and your customers grief so give us more money.

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I agree, and I admit that I thought the comment about what the pilots are asking for is less than 1 day of strike actions must only be a 1yrs comparison, or possibly only covering the 3 years, and not actually taking it across the next 20/30/40+ years that BA would actually be paying this out.

while I "kind of" understand the pilots perspective on things, I don't think they should expect any kind of "shares" from the profits just because BA are doing well. At the end of the day, it's like any business, if every start up had it's employees demanding shares as soon as they start doing well then how many companies would actually go bust? The argument is that "they help make the profits that BA are reaping" well of course they do, that is what they are EMPLOYED to do. They are flying planes, that is their job. Just like I sit at my desk and write code for the systems my work use, I help to keep the systems running, if myself and my colleagues didn't do that then the business would suffer as the customers wouldn't be able to use the services we provide... yet i don't feel a sense of entitlement to the profits of the company because of that and it makes no logical sense that that is the way the world of employment should work! Saying all that, I do think BA are being totally inflexible and just crossing their arms and shaking their heads at any suggestions instead of at least trying to offer some kind of buffer middle ground. Both as bad as each other. Just my opinion of course

I really hope that they sit round the table this week, see sense and come to an agreement so that no one suffers the mess, hassle & upset that a strike would cause to many dibbers

[Pez01]

I did read an article this week which stated that currently the pilots get a profit related bonus. BA want to change this to include all cabin crew not just pilots meaning that the pilots will get less of of share of the profits (hence the 11% pay increase offer) as it will be shared more equally under the new proposal. No idea how much truth there is in this.

I’m pretty disappointed that they are striking over a bonus scheme ... surely a bonus is just that - a non guaranteed bonus? As I said - no idea how much truth is in it as it could be the press looking for headlines...

I do hope that an agreement can be reached around the negotiating table so that people’s holidays are not ruined.

[Loftus]

Originally Posted by Procrastinator

I don't know all the details of what they do receive in remuneration so the logic above could be flawed, but fundamentally i don't think an employee doing the same job that they did last year should expect anything other than an inflation linked increase. The way to higher pay should be greater responsibility and taking on a new role. E.g. progress from first officer to captain. Not just - we can cause you and your customers grief so give us more money.

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Does that include Alex Cruz and the rest of the senior management?

[OLS]

Originally Posted by Loftus

Does that include Alex Cruz and the rest of the senior management?

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Assume you are pointing out the senior management are getting bumper bonuses etc? (appologies if I have read this wrong!)

That is not limited to BA though, there are millions of companies around the world that work like that, senior management get better pay rises and better bonuses, it's just the way it is. If you (not you personally of course) don't like it then you have a choice, leave and work for a company that doesn't work like that (good luck finding one!) OR work your way up and get that position yourself!

Its the same in my job, the little people i.e me, have had a bonus terms changed this year, it's already been capped at 10% but you could still get 12% if you "exceeded" all your expectations, however now it's capped at 10% to exceed, (and it was near impossible to get an exceed signed off anyway!) so it's now almost impossible to hit the 10% cap, plus we have has the lowest payrise ever this year at 2.4% but the execs are not capped and have had as much as 20% (although I personally think that our 2.4% is ok considering lots of people don't get even that! ) - however all the big wigs (snr management / directors) don't fall in to the "capped" bonus and are on a different bonus structure, meaning not only are they getting hundreds of thousands a year they are also getting an absolute mammoth bonus on top - what can I do about it? Leave my job and go work elsewhere (that probably works in the same way), work my ≈≈≈≈ off to try and get a senior management / director position (not really what I want at the moment with young children!), suck it up and do my job?

**NB just a note that in my company, the bonuses for the senior management are tied to a 3yr profit loss scheme, i.e they get a bumper bonus, but if one of the multi million £££ decisions / projects they signed off on cause a loss to the company of over a certain %%% they have to pay the bonus back - I wonder if BA and other companies have the same written in to these bumper bonuses***

ETA : sorry if this is drifting off topic.

[Procrastinator]

Originally Posted by Loftus

Does that include Alex Cruz and the rest of the senior management?

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Senior management will always be paid significantly more and that remuneration will be tied to the shareholders returns. I would wager being a pilot is actually not a bad start point if someone wanted to move in to the management structure and work up to that level.

But to answer the question - should Alex Cruz et al get inflation based increases for doing the same job for 3 years? No, they should be fired. Any leader and senior team that produces no value or growth should be fired unless there are very specific reasons that are outside of their control.

[Loftus]

I'm not stupid enough to think that senior management aren't paid considerably more than those on the shop floor, or to not know about corporate bonus structures.
I also don't think it is morally justifiable that the huge gap between the top and the bottom continues to grow - an average worker would now have to work 167 years to earn one years salary of a median FTSE100 company boss. If the company is doing well enough to pay massive bonuses at the top it's doing well enough to reflect that achievement at the bottom.

But, as you say, off topic now.

[bighal]

Originally Posted by Procrastinator

Senior management will always be paid significantly more and that remuneration will be tied to the shareholders returns. I would wager being a pilot is actually not a bad start point if someone wanted to move in to the management structure and work up to that level.

But to answer the question - should Alex Cruz et al get inflation based increases for doing the same job for 3 years? No, they should be fired. Any leader and senior team that produces no value or growth should be fired unless there are very specific reasons that are outside of their control.

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But the problem to your argument here is that they have increased value to the shareholders which ultimately will decide how much they get paid. If enough share holders vote against any of the senior members pay terms/increases then they won't get any, which has happened to other companies in the past.

People should remember, and this does include the unions, that the jobs at the top and the bottom are completely different, most don't even know what the day to day work entails, and focus on different priorities so are paid differently.

[ClaireNJ]

If BA give in to their demands won’t the other pilots in the IAG Group, like Iberia think they should have the deal too 🤔🙄

[Seaworldfan]

Well talks haven’t broken down yet so hopefully that means they have at least got some basis for negotiations... or the catering is pretty good.